>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, PRESIDENT BIDEN VISITS NORTH CAROLINA WITH A MESSAGE ABOUT VACCINATIONS.

THE CONTEST FOR ELECTION SECURITY OR VOTER PROTECTION.

AND NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES DECISION ABOUT COMING TO UNC.

STAY WITH US.

♪ >> WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM.

I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

THIS WEEK PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WAS IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH A SPECIAL MESSAGE REGARDING COVID VACCINATIONS.

>> YOU ARE STILL AT RISK OF GETTING SERIOUSLY ILL OR DYING IF YOU IN FACT HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED THAT'S JUST A FACT.

AND THIS NEW DANGEROUS VARIANT, CONTINUES TO EMERGE.

IT'S NOW THE MOST COMMON VARIANT IN AMERICA AND HERE.

AND UNVACCINATED PEOPLE ARE INCREDIBLY VULNERABLE.

THIS IS A SERIOUS CONCERN WITH WHAT EXPERTS CALL THE DELTA VARIANT.

THE PRESIDENT'S VISIT COMES AS NORTH CAROLINA IS NOT KEEPING PACE WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IN TERMS OF THE RATE OF VACCINATED ADULTS.

BIDEN'S GOAL TO SEE 70% OF AMERICAN ADULTS VACCINATED BY THE 4TH OF JULY IS FALLING SHORT WITH ABOUT 65% OF THE COUNTRY VACCINATED.

AND HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA, ONLY 55%.

OUR DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES HAS STATED WE STILL WANT TO REACH OUR GOAL OF 2 THIRDS OF NORTH CAROLINIANS 18 AND OLDER WITH AT LEAST ONE VACCINE DOSE.

THAT'S WHEN WE BELIEVE WE WILL HAVE ENOUGH PROTECTION ACROSS OUR COMMUNITIES TO BE ABLE TO LIVE MORE SAFELY WITH THIS VIRUS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S VISIT AND THE VACCINATION RATE HERE.

I'D LIKE TO WELCOME FROM NCCU BRETT CHAMBERS, LA'MESHIA WHITTINGTON OF ADVANCED CAROLINA AND POLITICAL ANALYST STEVE RAO.

THE IMPACT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S VISIT LET ME JUST START OFF WITH YOU, LA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REAL IMPACT OF THAT VISIT HAS BEEN?

OR WILL BE?

>> WELL I THINK IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

NORTH CAROLINA'S COMPRISED OF MOSTLY RURAL COMMUNITIES AND SO PRESIDENT BIDEN MADE A STOP IN OF COURSE OUR STATE'S CAPITOL AND THAT'S GREAT.

BUT A LOT OF ATTENTION IS FOCUSED ON ALWAYS RALEIGH, DURHAM, CHARLOTTE, GREENSBORO, MAJOR URBAN METROPOLITAN AREAS, BUT THE RURAL COMMUNITIES ARE ALWAYS LEFT TO BEAR, NOT ONLY WITH VISIBILITY BUT ALSO ACCESSIBILITY TO VACCINATION SITES.

SO WE'VE ALREADY SEEN A DISCREPANCY FOR THE PAST SINCE JANUARY WHERE THERE AREN'T AS MANY SITES IN OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES AND FOOD DESERT AREAS MEDICAL DESERT AREAS, TRANSPORTATION THAT CAN'T ACTUALLY TRANSPORT PEOPLE TO THE VACCINE SITES, OK THAT'S WHERE THE REAL IMPEDIMENT IS, AND SO TO STOP IN THE TRIANGLE IS TO STILL PLACE FOCUS ON URBAN AREAS SO WE'LL SEE.

>> AND STEVE WHAT DO YOU TAKE FROM HIS VISIT, HIS DECISION TO COME TO WAKE COUNTY AND THEN TO COME TO THE THE GREENE COUNTY COMMUNITY AREA?

>> WELL I THINK FIRST OF ALL I I THINK IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF CAME TO A DRIVE-UP VACCINATION RATES WHEN WE'RE NOT DOING SO GREAT NORTH CAROLINA WITH 38 IN THE NATION, ONLY 55% OF RECEIVED ONE DOSE 52% FULLY VACCINATED AND WAKE COUNTY WE'VE DONE PRETTY WELL DEB I MEAN YOU KNOW IN TERMS OF JUST OUT HOW WELL WE'RE VACCINATED AND SEEING DEATHS REALLY GO DOWN, CASES GO DOWN, BUT IN THIS PART OF WAKE COUNTY WE'RE SEEING THE NUMBERS NOT LOOKING SO GOOD IN TERMS OF VACCINATIONS.

SO I THINK IT'S GOOD THAT HE WENT TO THIS PART OF WAKE COUNTY AND I THINK AS IT HAS BEEN SAID IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO ALSO LOOK AT HOW DO WE BRING PEOPLE OUT IN THE RURAL AREAS.

OBVIOUSLY THE CASH INCENTIVES AND LOTTERIES DON'T SEEM TO BE WORKING AS MUCH AS WE THOUGHT WE HOPE THAT CHANGES, AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO ALSO REOPEN THE ECONOMY.

SO THE DANGER IS IF THE DELTA VARIANT CONTINUES AND PEOPLE WHO AREN'T VACCINATED CAN GET THAT DELTA VARIANT WHICH IS WHAT DOCTOR FAUCI IS SAYING, THEN IT COULD ACTUALLY SPIRAL US BACK IN THE FALL WHERE WE WOULD HAVE TO MAYBE LOCKDOWN CLOSE THINGS UP AND SO I THINK THERE'S A BALANCE BETWEEN REOPENING THE ECONOMY, CONTINUING TO GET BUSINESSES BACK, BUT IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN AS FAST AS WE WANT IF WE DON'T GET PEOPLE VACCINATED SO I THINK IT'S GREAT THE PRESIDENT CAME.

IT'S YET TO BE SEEN HOW SUCCESSFUL IT WILL BE.

>> AND BRAD I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOO BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE MAY FEEL LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT BIDEN WHAT WHAT WAS YOUR PRESENCE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO IN TERMS OF AN IMPACT?

WHY WOULD HE CHOOSE TO COME ALL THE WAY HERE?

>> WELL NORTH CAROLINA IS A VERY IMPORTANT STATE IN NOT JUST TO NATIONAL ELECTION, BUT THERE'S LOCAL IMPLICATIONS TOO, SO AND THEN FROM A HEALTH STANDPOINT, PUBLIC HEALTH STANDPOINT, HE WANTS TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT I CARE.

SO HE COMES TO THE STATE THAT ONLY 11 OTHER STATES HAVE WORSE VACCINATION RATES THAN WE DO, SO WE'RE NOT THE BOTTOM BUT WE'RE NOT AT THE TOP, AND THEN HE COMES TO THE STATE CAPITOL SO HE CAN GET THE STATE LEGISLATORS ATTENTIONS TO.

SO IT'S LIKE IT'S A GOOD MOVE POLITICALLY, BUT LA ACTUALLY MADE A VERY WHAT I THINK IS EVEN BETTER POINT IS THAT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN SOME ATTENTION GIVEN TO SOME OF THOSE OTHER COUNTIES WHERE HE MAY NOT EVEN BE AS STRONG AND POLITICALLY BUT ALSO FROM PUBLIC HEALTH STANDPOINT, HE WOULD HAVE PROBABLY HAD A BIGGER IMPACT.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY A POLITICAL MESSAGE THERE.

I THINK AND I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOME NUMBERS AND POLICY MEASURES RELATED TO COVID SPREAD, WE KNOW THAT SINCE MARCH 2020 NEARLY 1 MILLION 12 THOUSAND PEOPLE IN NORTH CAROLINA HAVE TESTED POSITIVE FOR THE CORONAVIRUS AND ALMOST 14,000 HAVE DIED.

COMPARING A MAP OF THE STATE THAT SHOWS THE NUMBER OF COVID CASES AND DEATHS BY COUNTY TO A MAP THAT SHOWS VACCINATION RATES.

IT'S CLEAR MANY OF THOSE COUNTIES WITH HIGH AS COVID CASES AND DEATHS ARE ALSO THOSE WITH LOW VACCINATION RATES AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT GOVERNOR COOPER HAS EXTENDED THE EMERGENCY ORDER THROUGH THE END OF JULY THROUGH JULY 30TH AT THE SAME TIME AROUND MID-MAY THE GOVERNOR IS ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER LIFTING ALL MANDATORY CAPACITY AND GATHERING LIMITS, SOCIAL DISTANCING REQUIREMENTS AND MASK MANDATES AND MOST RECENTLY THE LEGISLATURE VOTED TO GIVE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARDS.

THE DECISION-MAKING POWER ABOUT MASKS AS KIDS RETURN TO SCHOOLS AND WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS ARE THERE MIXED MESSAGES COMING FROM THE STATE AND GOVERNOR COOPER, WHAT DO YOU THINK STEVE?

>> YEAH, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THAT MYSELF IT IS I MEAN WHEN YOU START REALLY SEEING, YOU KNOW REDUCING THESE MANDATES, YOU'RE NOT REQUIRING MASK OF COURSE IF YOU'RE VACCINATED EVERY DO SING THE CAPACITY, YOU KNOW THE LIMITS OF EVENTS THERE'S A SENSE OF OPTIMISM EVEN FOR ME I FEEL LIKE GRADES BACK TO SUMMER GO OUT, BUT YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT AREN'T VACCINATED AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM IS THE MESSAGING HAS TO BE CONCISE AND CONSISTENT.

SO I JUST HOPE THAT WE'RE NOT OPENING UP TOO FAST AND THEN COME THE FALL, THERE COULD BE ANOTHER SURGE.

>> WE'VE ALREADY GOT THIS OPENING AND LA WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS MIXED MESSAGING?

IS THAT MIX MESSAGING THAT WE'RE HEARING?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY IS, AND WE'VE BEEN OF MIXED MESSAGING SINCE LAST YEAR.

IN OUR STATE THERE WHEN NO OSHA PROTECTIONS FOR WORKERS ESSENTIAL WORKERS AND COVID-19.

SO ALREADY LAST YEAR A LOT OF ESSENTIAL WORKERS, A LOT OF FRONT LINE FRANCHISE CORPORATION WORKERS WERE BEING EXPOSED TO COVID AND FACILITIES WERE NOT REQUIRED OR SOCIAL DISTANCING.

NOW WHY DO I SAY THAT RIGHT?

THIS YEAR WE'RE SEEING THE IMPACT OF THAT THE IMPACT THE HEALTH DISPARITIES IMPACT OF THE VACCINATION RATE IN THESE RURAL AND TIER ONE THROUGH 3 COUNTIES AND AT THE SAME TIME OUR COMMUNITIES DIFFERENT SEE RELIEF AND NOW WE'RE BEING TOLD WE CAN GO BACK OUTSIDE.

SO WE CAN'T DISCUSS THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF MIXED MESSAGING FOR A STRAIGHT YEAR IN ADDITION TO KIND OF THE COMFORT LEVEL WHERE WE'VE TAKEN OUR GUARD.

APRIL 21ST IS WHEN GOVERNOR COOPER GAVE THE ANNOUNCEMENT IT'S BEEN 2 MONTHS OF A CONSISTENT MESSAGE THAT SAYS OK JUNE 1ST, WE'RE CLEAR, WE'RE FREE, WE'RE GOOD TO GO AND THEN HERE'S PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TELLING US HOLD UP NOT SO FAST HERE COMES A VARIANT WE NEED YOU VACCINATED.

IT'S CONFUSING.

>> AND THEN WE'RE SEEING THESE DIFFERENT TACTICS TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET THEIR VACCINATIONS CASH, GAS, A MILLION DOLLAR LOTTERY.

AND IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING BRETT.

WHY DO YOU THINK NOT?

>> PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROBABLY WORKED ON ALREADY GOT VACCINATED.

YOU KNOW IT'S LIKE THERE'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE THERE EARLY ADOPTERS WHO RUSH OUT SOON AS SOMETHING'S AVAILABLE.

THEY'RE GOING TO GO GET WHATEVER THAT IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S LIKE THEY BELIEVE THAT THAT'S GOING TO HELP THEM.

THEN ADD TO THAT THE LAGGARDS OR THE DOUBTERS THEY'RE GOING TO SIT BACK AND 'I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT' STILL PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING CALLED COVID AT ALL.

THERE ARE PEOPLE DON'T TRUST, THEY DON'T TRUST IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE PRESIDENT IS THEY'RE NOT GONNA TRUST AND EVERYBODY'S GETTING MIXED MESSAGES.

SO I THINK THAT IT HAS TO BE A TARGETED APPROACH TO IT NOW BECAUSE THE MASSES, THAT BIG GROUP, THEY'VE ALREADY DONE THEIR VACCINATION NOW WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO THE SMALL POCKETS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE VARIOUS REASONS WHY THEY'RE NOT, WHETHER AS THEY DON'T TRUST VACCINATIONS WHEN THEY CLAIMING I'M NOT GOING TO LIKE THE TUSKEGEE AIRMAN WELL, I MEAN THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT.

I'M NOT GOING TO PLAY INTO BIDEN'S OR THE GOVERNMENT'S HANDS AND SO ALL THESE DIFFERENT PLACES HAVE DIFFERENT REASONS AND EACH LOCATION IS GOING TO HAVE TO FIND OUT WHAT THOSE PEOPLE'S REASONS ARE AND OVERCOME THOSE WITH A DIFFERENT NARRATIVE.

>> JUST ONE MORE MINUTE, YOU KNOW GET TO YOU AGAIN, LA BECAUSE WHAT DO YOU SUPPOSE ANYONE CAN DO AT THIS POINT TO TRY TO GET TO THAT NUMBER IS THAT NUMBER THAT BY BIDEN WAS AIMING FOR JUST TOO AMBITIOUS.

>> WELL IN NORTH CAROLINA, WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT A SOUTHERN STRATEGY, AND WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT AS PROFESSOR MENTIONED WE HAVE TO REALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT IS THE HISTORICAL LEGACY OF TUSKEGEE AND OTHER EXPERIMENTS THAT CREATED IMPACT.

SO WE HAVE TO STRATEGIZE AND THINK CRITICALLY OK HOW DOES THAT IMPACT TODAY?

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT VACCINE HESITANCY THAT'S THE MESSAGING THAT'S THE ACTUAL APPROACH THAT WE TAKE TO THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE TECHNICALLY SPEAKING THE COVID-19 VACCINES WERE EMERGENCY APPROVED BY FDA, BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY NOT FDA APPROVED.

AND SO THAT'S REAL FACTS THAT MEANS THE SCIENCE IS GOING TO HAVE TO STEP UP AND THE TESTING ITSELF WILL HAVE TO STEP UP TO THE HESITANCY THAT IS ACTUALLY VERY REAL AND THE LEGACY OF TUSKEGEE BUT WE'RE IN 2021.

WE'RE SAYING WHAT DOES IT MEAN NOT TO BE FDA APPROVED?

SO YOU'RE HEARING BOTH OF THOSE THINGS IN OUR COMMUNITIES SO THE STRATEGY HAS TO ANSWER THAT WITH REAL FACTS, REAL SCIENCE AND REAL TRUTH BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY WILL ASK YOU TO BE TRANSPARENT AND THEY'RE JUST NOT WANT TO TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT.

>> MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

THIS WEEK IN CONGRESS SENATE REPUBLICANS BLOCKED PASSAGE OF THE FOR THE PEOPLE ACT VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION.

MEANWHILE HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA, THE RNC IS CLAIMING A WIN IN THE FIGHT FOR ELECTION INTEGRITY AS THE NORTH CAROLINA BOARD OF ELECTIONS DECIDED TO AMEND ELECTION REGULATIONS REGARDING POLL OBSERVERS, SO LEADING UP TO THE VOTE.

IT CERTAINLY WAS SUSPECTED THAT THIS WOULD NOT PASS AND STEVE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE FILIBUSTER IN PLACE, WAS IT WISE TO PURSUE A VOTE ON THIS RIGHT NOW OR IS OR WAS GOING FOR THIS REALLY INEVITABLE?

>> WELL, I MEAN I THINK IT'S ALWAYS, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO TO TREAD WITH CAUTION, I'D LIKE TO SEE THESE STATE INITIATIVES IN LINE WITH FEDERAL INITIATIVES AND ELECTION REFORM BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE FACT OF THE MATTER DEB IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE FOR PEOPLE'S ACT, IT'S ADDRESSING A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE TAKING PLACE THAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT - EXPANDING VOTING RIGHTS VOTER PROTECTIONS, GERRYMANDERING, ADDRESSING THE MONEY IN THE SYSTEM.

BUT IT'S NOT ADDRESSING ONE PROBLEM AND THAT IS STATES PASSING LAWS TO CURB VOTING RIGHTS AND DOING THESE KINDS OF THINGS, SO I THINK RATHER THAN STATES PASSING LAWS I THINK IT MAY BE TIMELY THAT THEY PASSED IT AND WE WANT INTEGRITY IN OUR VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA.

BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT THAT WE KEEP THOSE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT'S GOING ON AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND SO I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE FOR PEOPLE'S ACT IS ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THAT ISSUE BECAUSE STATES ARE CONTINUING TO - FOR EXAMPLE THROWING OUT ELECTION RESULTS, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP SORT OF ENCOURAGED THAT CULTURE BUT IT DOESN'T GERRYMANDERING AND PROVIDE THESE THINGS AND SO I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING MOVING FORWARD ON WHAT FEDERAL FORM CAN BE PASSED.

>> FOR ME ONE OF THE THING THE THINGS THAT KIND OF JUMPS OUT IN WHAT YOU SAID IS THIS ISSUE OF STATES RIGHTS.

SO LA'MESHIA, YOU KNOW WHEN WHEN IT COMES TO ALIGNING SAY FEDERAL AND STATE INTERESTS, HOW POSSIBLE IS THAT?

>> SO HISTORICALLY WE SAW THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WHICH WAS CREATED TO PROTECT BLACK COMMUNITIES FROM GERRYMANDERING.

TO CREATE BLACK ONLY DISTRICTS.

THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WAS GUTTED, BUT WE IT WAS A FEDERAL LEGISLATION THAT HELPED TO MAKE SURE THAT STATES WERE BEING FAIR.

SO WHEN THAT VOTING RIGHTS ACT, THE VRA, WAS GUTTED IN 2013, THAT REMOVED THE REQUIREMENTS ON STATES TO PROVE THAT THEY WASN'T GOING TO DISCRIMINATE.

THEY SAID THAT RACISM WAS GONE.

AND THEN SHORTLY AFTER NORTH CAROLINA WAS UNDER THE WORST MOST RACIST GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS IN HISTORY, INCLUDING PARTISAN THAT WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT.

SO WE TALK ABOUT ALIGNMENT, WE'RE ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE DISTRICT POPULATIONS AND EVEN THE ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA THAT ARE SET TO MOVE TO NEXT YEAR BECAUSE OF THE SENATE BILL 7.22.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE IMPACT ON DISTRICTED POPULATIONS, MUNICIPALITIES LOCALLY, AND HOW GERRYMANDERING WILL REAR ITS UGLY HEAD BECAUSE THERE'S NO FEDERAL OVERSIGHT TO REQUIRE STATES TO BE FAIR AND NOT RACIST.

SO THAT ALIGNMENT HAS TO BE THERE RIGHT?

AND SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT, STEVE MENTIONED THIS, THERE ARE MORE THAN 400 ANTI VOTER BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN 45 STATES SINCE JANUARY.

IT IS AN ORCHESTRATED EFFORT THAT IS HAPPENING ACROSS STATES.

SO THERE HAS TO BE FEDERAL ALIGNMENT TO ENSURE THAT OUR VOTING RIGHTS AREN'T IMPEDED BECAUSE OF THE GREAT SUCCESS THAT FOLKS FEAR AFTER THE GEORGIA ELECTIONS.

>> WELL BRETT HAS MADE AS LA MENTIONED, THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 400 NEW PIECES OF LEGISLATION TO PROTECT THE VOTE INTRODUCED IN RECENT MONTHS.

WHAT IS REALLY WINNING HERE VOTER PROTECTION OR ELECTION PROTECTION?

>> THIS STRATEGY PROTECTION.

THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HAVE IT THEIR WAY, YOU NOTICE IT WASN'T THIS BIG MOVE TO CHANGE LAWS WHEN THEY WON, BUT NOW THAT THEY LOST, THEY WANT TO CHANGE RULES.

IT'S LIKE THEY WANT TO MOVE THE GOALPOSTS.

'WE LOST THAT ONE SO'...

BUT IN THEIR MIND THEY DIDN'T LOSE, THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT STRATEGY.

SO BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE POURED ONTO 'OK WE'LL JUST HERE ARE THE RULES FOR US RIGHT NOW, LET'S 'GO AHEAD AND REGISTER OUR PEOPLE, 'GET OUR PEOPLE WOULD VOTE THIS WAY SO THAT WE CAN WIN IT.'

AND WHEN THEY WON THE OTHER TEAM SAID, 'OH WHOA, WHOA, WHOA!

'FLAG ON THE PLAY THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE THE RULES SO THAT THOSE OTHER PEOPLE THE OTHER SIDE CAN'T WIN.'

AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON.

THIS IS A STRATEGY AND YOU'VE HEARD ME SAY THIS BEFORE, DEBORAH, ON THIS SHOW THAT POLITICS IS A BLOOD SPORT, IT'S A FULL-CONTACT SPORT AND PEOPLE ARE PLAYING TO WIN.

AND IT'S BOTH SIDES NOT JUST ONE SIDE, BOTH SIDES ARE PLAYING TO WIN, AND US WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO GET CRUSHED BETWEEN IT SO I THINK THAT THIS -- AND FIRST OF ALL GOING BACK TO WHAT LA WAS TALKING ABOUT WAS ARTICLE ONE SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY ALLOWS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DO WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO.

AND THERE WAS A COMPETITION OF OPINIONS AND VIEWPOINTS BETWEEN THIS HARVARD PROFESSOR, CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME RIGHT NOW, AND ONE OF THE EXPERTS WITH THAT WAS WITH GEORGE BUSH.

THEY KIND OF HAD THIS IDEOLOGICAL DEBATE AND LEGAL DEBATE.

BUT THE GUY FROM HARVARD WAS LIKE, 'NO ARTICLE ONE SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION ALLOWS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DICTATE TO THE STATES ACTUALLY EVEN UNDER STATES RIGHTS AND CONTROL THEM, I MEAN THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU KNOW IT'S A LEGAL ARGUMENT AND I'M NOT A LAWYER DON'T PLAY ONE ON TV.

SO I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS GOING TO BE CARRIED OUT IT'S GOING GO BACK AND FORTH.

>> IT ALWAYS DOES.

>> THIS IS A POWER GRAB BY THE DEMOCRATS AND THE OTHER NARRATIVE IS THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO LIKE DO IT THEIR WAY IN THE STATES, THEY WANT TO CLAIM THE STATES RIGHTS.

STATES RIGHTS THAT SOUNDS VERY FAMILIAR FROM WAY BACK, HUH?

>> YEAH, IT DOES SOUND PRETTY FAMILIAR.

I WANT TO BRING ONE MORE ELEMENT INTO THIS AND GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS STEVE AND THAT'S JOE MANCHIN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK - EVERYTHING THAT HAS TRANSPIRED THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS.

WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR HIS BLACK VOTERS SUPPORT YOU THINK?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, HE'S FROM MY HOME STATE OF WEST, VIRGINIA, GO MOUNTAINEERS, AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO HURT HIS SUPPORT WITH BLACK SUPPORTERS.

YOU GOT TO REALIZE IN WEST VIRGINIA, JOE MANCHIN IS IN A VERY CONSERVATIVE STATE, A RED STATE.

AND HE'S GOING TO WIN WITH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS SUPPORT AND YOU KNOW I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY THOUGH MANCHIN IS IN A VERY INTERESTING POSITION.

I WILL SAY THIS I AGREE WITH SENATOR MANCHIN ON THAT THE FACT OF THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT THAT WE HAVE AS AMERICANS IS OUR RIGHT TO VOTE AND THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE INSTITUTIONS OF OUR DEMOCRACY ARE STRONG AND THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

I THINK KNOWING HIM AS A FRIEND, I THINK HIS INTENT IS THAT HE WANTS TO HAVE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

THE CHALLENGE IS HOW IS HE GOING TO DO THAT THE FILIBUSTER, IN MY OPINION, SHOULD BE USED ONLY FOR CONTINUED DEBATE.

ENGAGE DEBATE.

IS NOT BEING USED LIKE THAT.

FILIBUSTER REQUIRE 60 VOTES IN THE SENATE TO STOP THE DEBATE.

BUT THE DEBATE CONTINUES TO STALL LEGISLATION.

SO I WOULD CHALLENGE THE SENATOR TO SAY 'OK SENATOR IF YOU WANT TO COMBINE 'THE JOHN LEWIS VOTING RIGHTS ACT WITH THE FOR PEOPLE ACT LET'S DO IT TOGETHER'.

LET'S MAYBE CHANGE THE RULES SO WE WOULD LOWER THE NUMBER OF SENATORS THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO END THE DEBATE, OR WE COULD PROVIDE AN EXEMPTION FOR SOMETHING LIKE DEMOCRACY.

IF SENATOR MANCHIN BELIEVES THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, HE MAY WANT TO GO TO HIS COLLEAGUES SAY ON THIS ONE, LET'S WORK TOGETHER LET'S GET OUR EFFORTS GOING.

BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION I DO THINK THAT HE WILL LOSE BLACK SUPPORT, HE WILL LOSE DEMOCRATIC SUPPORT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IF HE CAN PULL THIS OFF AND SHOW THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD THAT OUR COUNTRY CAN COME TOGETHER - BECAUSE IF WE DON'T LIKE BRETT CHAMBERS SAYS, I'M IN POLITICS AS WELL, IT IS A GLADIATOR SPORT AND WE COULD SIT HERE AND SAY, 'WELL I WON, YOU WON, I LOST YOU WON,' BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LOSE.

SO THAT'S WHAT SENATOR MANCHIN NEEDS TO DO.

>> WELL THANK YOU FOR THAT MESSAGE TO SENATOR MANCHIN.

>> AFTER WEEKS OF HEADLINES, JOURNALIST NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES HAS DECIDED SHE IS NOT ACCEPTING A POSITION AT UNC CHAPEL HILL WITHOUT TENURE.

UNLESS SOMETHING CHANGES IN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO, SHE WILL NOT START ON JULY 1ST.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR ALL THE ISSUES RAISED AND THE FALLOUT THAT HAS OCCURRED SINCE HER APPOINTMENT AS KNIGHT CHAIR?

AND THAT ANNOUNCEMENT TOOK PLACE IN APRIL.

I'M GOING TO OPEN UP WITH YOU BRETT BECAUSE YOU ARE A PROFESSOR VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE UNIVERSITY SETTING AND I'M SPECIFICALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH SGA PRESIDENT LAMAR RICHARDS.

WHAT ARE YOU THOUGHTS?

>> WELL BEFORE WE EVEN TALK ABOUT LAMAR, I THINK THE CORE OF THIS IS ABOUT NIKOLE AND THE PROCESS.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS.

THERE'S A PROCESS AND THERE'S A NARRATIVE.

AND THERE'S A CULTURE.

BECAUSE NICOLE IT IS A TARGET RIGHT NOW.

AND I HAVE TO AS A DISCLAIMER I ACTUALLY KNOW NIKOLE AND I'VE BEEN PART OF HER IDA B.

WELLS SOCIETY TRAINING AND IRE TRAINING.

I'M JUST LIKE TRYING TO WRAP MY HEAD AROUND WHY THERE WAS A SUCH A BIG BROUHAHA AND CHALLENGE TO NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES.

BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT HER.

IT'S ABOUT SOME FOLKS THAT WANT TO CONTROL THE NARRATIVE AGAIN, AND THEY WANT TO CONTROL THE CULTURE OF THE UNIVERSITY.

THEY'RE PUSHING BACK AND THEY'RE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY CAN.

HUSSMAN IS A MAJOR DONOR TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JOURNALISM AND TO THE UNIVERSITY.

THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF IS ALWAYS STRUGGLING AND IT'S NOT JUST UNC, IT'S UNIVERSITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE ALWAYS STRUGGLED WITH POINTS OF VIEW PERSPECTIVES - THE FIGHT THAT THEY'RE HAVING IS OVER ACADEMIC FREEDOM, AND THE PROCESS WAS EVERYONE ON THE LEADING UP TO THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES, AT EVERY LEVEL, THE FACULTY SAID WE WANT THIS WOMAN HERE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT >> [INAUDIBLE] THE TENURE PIECE, BUT THEY ALSO SAY THERE WAS NEVER PRESENTED TO THEM.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF STRATEGIES GOING ON HERE THAT ARE CONFLICTING AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE STILL KNOW THE WHOLE STORY TO IT.

>> NO IN WHAT I'M READING I'M GETTING REVELATIONS EVERY TIME I READ A NEW ARTICLE BUT LA YOU KNOW BRETT MENTIONED PROCESS NARRATIVE AND CULTURE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CULTURE OF THE UNIVERSITY SETTING AND THE FACT THAT SO MANY FACULTY MEMBERS HAVE LEFT SORT OF AS A RESULT OF THE NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES STORY, BUT MANY FACULTY MEMBERS HAD LEFT PRIOR TO THIS.

THEY'RE JUST FED UP.

>> SO IF WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT UNC CHAPEL HILL SPECIFICALLY, WE SAW AT LEAST THE LAST FEW YEARS REALLY SINCE THE 70'S, THERE WERE PROTESTS AGAINST A CONFEDERATE STATUE CALLED SILENT SAM AND SO THAT SPEAKS TO KIND OF THE CULTURAL ENVIRONMENT ON THE CAMPUS.

AND SO NOT ONLY WERE THERE PROTESTS SINCE THE 70'S THIS CONFEDERATE STATUE REMAINED RIGHT?

LET'S ALSO TALK ABOUT HISTORICALLY NORTH CAROLINA THE SOUTH.

CONFEDERACY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INACCURATE HISTORICAL NARRATIVES AND THE LIE, THE PERVASIVE MYTH THAT THE 1619 PROJECT ISN'T ACCURATE WELL CONFEDERACY CONFEDERATE STATUES AREN'T ACCURATE.

A PRIVATE INTEREST GROUP CALLED THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF CONFEDERACY MADE SURE TO INVEST IN STATUES AND CHILDREN'S BOOKS FOR THE KKK AT THE TOP OF THE 1900 IN ORDER TO CREATE THIS PERVASIVE MYTH AND LIE THAT THE CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS WERE WAR HEROES.

SO WE HAVE A INSTITUTION THAT HAS ENSHRINED A PUBLIC INTEREST GROUP STATUE ON THEIR CAMPUS, DEVOTED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO SECURITY, AND THEN MADE A 2.5 MILLION DOLLARS YEAR DEAL FOR THE CONFEDERATE GROUP TO MOVE THE STATUTE.

SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CULTURE, A LOT OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HAS BEEN BREWING UNDER THE SURFACE.

AND SO I WILL SUPPORT, AND I'LL SAY IT VERY BLUNTLY.

WE SUPPORT THE SGA PRESIDENT LAMAR RICHARDS AND TO QUOTE HIS STATEMENT REALLY BRIEFLY, HE SAID, 'YOU CANNOT REFORM A SYSTEM ROOTED IN OPPRESSION, 'RACISM AND HATRED.

AND TRAGICALLY THE TERM 'REFORM AT THIS UNIVERSITY CONTINUES TO BE USED AS A SUBTLE 'TACTIC TO HER STUDENTS FACULTY STAFF PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE ALIKE' SO NIKOLE IS REALLY WHETHER I KNOW WAS ABOUT HER CONSENT, BUT SHE'S THE RECKONING THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DREAMING UP FOR THIS UNIVERSITY FOR YEARS.

>> AND TALKING ABOUT THE FALLOUT.

STEVE, YOU KNOW CERTAINLY LA BRINGS UP A LOT OF REALLY GREAT POINTS.

PARTICULARLY LET'S TALK ABOUT THE NARRATIVE THAT COMES OUT OF THIS, AND MOVING BACK TO LAMAR'S STATEMENTS THE SGA PRESIDENT WHO IS ALSO A MEMBER OF OF THE BOG AND HE HAS REALLY COME OUT STRONG AGAINST THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF IN HIS STATEMENTS AND NOW THAT UNLESS AND UNTIL NIKOLE COMES ON BOARD WHAT'S THAT GOING TO MEAN FOR THE UNIVERSITY AND HIS POSITION REPRESENTING THE UNIVERSITY?

>> WELL I'M DEBORAH, YOU KNOW AS A PROUD PARENT OF A TAR HEEL IN THE UNC SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM, THIS REALLY HITS HOME FOR ME JUST LOOKING AT THE REPUTATION OF THE UNIVERSITY THROWS AROUND THE NATION AND THE WORLD.

SUCH A LEADING ACADEMIC INSTITUTION AND I AGREE WITH LAMAR, THE PRESIDENT STUDENT BODY PRESIDENT THAT YOU KNOW THIS IS REALLY GOING TO HURT THE UNIVERSITY, AND I THINK THAT IT'S HURTING OUR REPUTATION IMAGE.

AND LET ME EXPLAIN WHY.

YOU KNOW I THINK WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON HERE, I THINK IS ALSO THE ROLE OF A JOURNALIST, AND THE HYPOCRISY THAT MISTER HUSSMAN IS SAYING IN THAT JOURNALISTS HAVE TO BE NON BIASED, THEY HAVE TO HAVE INTEGRITY.

THEY HAVE TO REPORT THE NEWS.

WELL, YOU KNOW, LET'S BE FAIR HERE, YOU KNOW, PROFESSOR JONES WAS WAS NOT BEING BIASED OR LAYING OUT A POLITICAL VIEW SHE WAS SIMPLY REPORTING FACTS, REPORTING BASED ON HER EXPERIENCES AND HER OBSERVATIONS.

THAT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT MISTER HUSSMAN BEEN PROBABLY WATCHES WHEN HE WATCHES FOX NEWS OR CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOWS.

SO I THINK IT SENDS A BAD MESSAGE TO OUR CHILDREN AS WELL, YOU KNOW GOOD JOURNALISM IS WHEN YOU DO BRING IN YOUR EXPERIENCES AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IF YOU LOOK AT 1619, THIS WAS A DOCUMENTARY THAT WAS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT SLAVES DID EXIST AND LIKE LA SAID, YOU KNOW WE PUT CONFEDERATE STATUES, WE HONOR AS HEROES, THESE KINDS OF THINGS.

WE CAN HAVE A REVISIONIST HISTORY SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE AND I THINK IT'S TIME FOR THE UNIVERSITY, PARTICULARLY UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA TO NOT HAVE THE UNIVERSITY BE A STOMPING GROUND FOR POLITICS.

>> AND LET'S NOT FORGET HER STRONG CREDENTIALS IN ADDITION TO HER EXPERIENCE, A PULITZER PRIZE WINNER.

MACARTTHUR GENIUS, AND MORE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKING WHAT MORE DOES SOMEONE HAVE TO DO TO QUALIFY AND IT'S NOT ABOUT HER QUALIFICATIONS IT'S MUCH BIGGER BRETT, AS YOU SAID, AND I THANK YOU STEVE RAO, LA'MESHIA WHITTINGTON AND BRETT CHAMBERS FOR YOUR COMMENTS TODAY.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU DEBORAH.

>> HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

>> ONCE AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK TODAY'S GUESTS.

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